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	<title>Comments on: Keys of Authority in the Book of Mormon</title>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1521</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1521</guid>
		<description>spektator,

Yes, baptism and confirmation are the GATE to the strait and narrow.  I don&#039;t disagree with that.  The strait and narrow is lifelong service, sanctification, and consecration to the will of God.  Only that will lead us to eternal life.

Why is being baptized and &quot;wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost&quot; different than receiving baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost?  I don&#039;t see the difference.  We are cleansed from all sin when we are baptized and are confirmed, and as we keep our covenants, repent, and partake of the sacrament every week, our sins are continually remitted and we continually become more sanctified.

Yes, there is a baptism by fire when we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, but it continues throughout a lifetime of submitting ourselves to the will of God, until we become one with Christ and the Father.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>spektator,</p>
<p>Yes, baptism and confirmation are the GATE to the strait and narrow.  I don&#8217;t disagree with that.  The strait and narrow is lifelong service, sanctification, and consecration to the will of God.  Only that will lead us to eternal life.</p>
<p>Why is being baptized and &#8220;wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost&#8221; different than receiving baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost?  I don&#8217;t see the difference.  We are cleansed from all sin when we are baptized and are confirmed, and as we keep our covenants, repent, and partake of the sacrament every week, our sins are continually remitted and we continually become more sanctified.</p>
<p>Yes, there is a baptism by fire when we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, but it continues throughout a lifetime of submitting ourselves to the will of God, until we become one with Christ and the Father.</p>
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		<title>By: spektator</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1515</link>
		<dc:creator>spektator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 17:17:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1515</guid>
		<description>Bruce,
Then explain to me why 2 Nephi 31:17-18 defines baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost is the GATE to the strait and narrow path to eternal life. What else is the strait and narrow path than that Christ-centered life of which you speak?

Also, according to Moroni 6:1-5, it is expected that we be &#039;wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost&#039; before we can be &#039;numbered among the people of the church.&#039; It is clearly more, in both  cases, than simply receiving the gift of Holy Ghost at confirmation. The expectation cited here the the same sanctification described in 3 Nephi 27: 19-20. 

Abandoning the true significance of the baptism by fire as characterized in the scriptures is rejecting the fulness of the gospel. The examples of Alma, Enos, the people of King Benjamin, and the 300 Lamanites were given that we may liken to scriptures to ourselves. This is what is meant by repent and come unto me since it is Christ who will baptize us with fire and with the Holy Ghost just as he promised the Nephites in 3 Nephi 12:1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bruce,<br />
Then explain to me why <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_1705402597');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_1705402597');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_1705402597');">2 &#78;&#101;&#112;&#104;&#105; 31:17-18</a> defines baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost is the GATE to the strait and narrow path to eternal life. What else is the strait and narrow path than that Christ-centered life of which you speak?</p>
<p>Also, according to <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_1817217134');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_1817217134');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_1817217134');">&#77;&#111;&#114;&#111;&#110;&#105; 6:1-5,</a> it is expected that we be &#8216;wrought upon and cleansed by the power of the Holy Ghost&#8217; before we can be &#8216;numbered among the people of the church.&#8217; It is clearly more, in both  cases, than simply receiving the gift of Holy Ghost at confirmation. The expectation cited here the the same sanctification described in <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_84865017');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_84865017');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_84865017');">3 &#78;&#101;&#112;&#104;&#105; 27: 19-20</a>. </p>
<p>Abandoning the true significance of the baptism by fire as characterized in the scriptures is rejecting the fulness of the gospel. The examples of Alma, Enos, the people of King Benjamin, and the 300 Lamanites were given that we may liken to scriptures to ourselves. This is what is meant by repent and come unto me since it is Christ who will baptize us with fire and with the Holy Ghost just as he promised the Nephites in <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_381301687');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_381301687');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_381301687');">3 &#78;&#101;&#112;&#104;&#105; 12:1</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1508</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 15:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1508</guid>
		<description>spektator,

The baptism by fire and of the Holy Ghost begins when one is confirmed a member of the Church and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost.  It is being commanded to receive the Holy Ghost.  Does this happen instantly?  No.  It is a command to receive the Spirit of God in our lives, and it does take time.  It is through Christ-centered actions and lifestyle that we become like Christ such that we can become free from sin and have the enjoyment of the Holy Ghost to be continually with us.  That is why the sacrament prayers repeat the covenant, &quot;that they may have His Spirit to be with them....&quot;  This baptism by fire often comes through a lifelong giving of our will to God, and sanctifying ourselves in His word.  That sanctification comes as we repent of our sins, having a desire to sin no more, and come closer to perfection.  It is a gate, as you have duly noted, but the straight and narrow path still lays behind it.  So, yes, the Church is fully and completely built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ.

God&#039;s works have been made manifest in this Church since the beginning, and continue today.  Miracles have been and are still being performed by the servants of the Almighty in this Church.  If one cannot see them, then it could be a lack of faith that causes such blindness.  &quot;But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe&quot; (D&amp;C 63:9).  We must have faith first before we will be able to see the signs.  No one outside the Church can see these miracles, because they do not have the faith necessary.  No one inside the Church can see them either, save they have faith.  I personally saw countless miracles on my mission, some of them too sacred to share.  I still see many miracles.  But I see them because I have faith in Christ, and faith in God.  Christ would not have been able to perform a single miracle among the Nephites unless they had faith.

Does tithing, temple attendance, building temples and meetinghouses, and renovating downtown SLC show the condition of the Church?  Only on a superficial administrative level.  The currents of God&#039;s miracles in this Church go much deeper than that.  President Hinckley was simply giving an update on some of those administrative matters, something he did in every General Conference.  Those items were &quot;business&quot; items.  If you want to hear some of the many miracles that are happening in the Church today, pay close attention to the words of our current Prophet and President Thomas S. Monson.  Nearly every talk he gives is filled to the brim of miracles that are occurring throughout the Church, without measure.  So, yes, the Church does show forth the works of God in it, if we have an eye to see them, and the faith to have them.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. (Deut. 29:4)

  13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
  14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
  15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
  16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
  17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. (Matt. 13:13-17)

He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see? (Ps. 94:9)

And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken. (Isa. 32:3)

Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:
Fear ye not me? saith the Lord: will ye not tremble at my presence... (Jer. 5:21-22)

Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house. (Ezek. 12:2)

Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? (Mark 8:18)

For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated. (D&amp;C 1:2)

Let him that is ignorant learn wisdom by humbling himself and calling upon the Lord his God, that his eyes may be opened that he may see, and his ears opened that he may hear;
For my Spirit is sent forth into the world to enlighten the humble and contrite, and to the condemnation of the ungodly. (D&amp;C 136:32-33)

And he heard a voice from heaven, saying: Enoch, my son, prophesy unto this people, and say unto them—Repent, for thus saith the Lord: I am angry with this people, and my fierce anger is kindled against them; for their hearts have waxed hard, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes cannot see afar off;
And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have denied me, and have sought their own counsels in the dark... (Moses 6:27-28)&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>spektator,</p>
<p>The baptism by fire and of the Holy Ghost begins when one is confirmed a member of the Church and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost.  It is being commanded to receive the Holy Ghost.  Does this happen instantly?  No.  It is a command to receive the Spirit of God in our lives, and it does take time.  It is through Christ-centered actions and lifestyle that we become like Christ such that we can become free from sin and have the enjoyment of the Holy Ghost to be continually with us.  That is why the sacrament prayers repeat the covenant, &#8220;that they may have His Spirit to be with them&#8230;.&#8221;  This baptism by fire often comes through a lifelong giving of our will to God, and sanctifying ourselves in His word.  That sanctification comes as we repent of our sins, having a desire to sin no more, and come closer to perfection.  It is a gate, as you have duly noted, but the straight and narrow path still lays behind it.  So, yes, the Church is fully and completely built upon the gospel of Jesus Christ.</p>
<p>God&#8217;s works have been made manifest in this Church since the beginning, and continue today.  Miracles have been and are still being performed by the servants of the Almighty in this Church.  If one cannot see them, then it could be a lack of faith that causes such blindness.  &#8220;But, behold, faith cometh not by signs, but signs follow those that believe&#8221; (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_1919458290');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_1919458290');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_1919458290');">&#68;&&#67; 63:9</a>).  We must have faith first before we will be able to see the signs.  No one outside the Church can see these miracles, because they do not have the faith necessary.  No one inside the Church can see them either, save they have faith.  I personally saw countless miracles on my mission, some of them too sacred to share.  I still see many miracles.  But I see them because I have faith in Christ, and faith in God.  Christ would not have been able to perform a single miracle among the Nephites unless they had faith.</p>
<p>Does tithing, temple attendance, building temples and meetinghouses, and renovating downtown SLC show the condition of the Church?  Only on a superficial administrative level.  The currents of God&#8217;s miracles in this Church go much deeper than that.  President Hinckley was simply giving an update on some of those administrative matters, something he did in every General Conference.  Those items were &#8220;business&#8221; items.  If you want to hear some of the many miracles that are happening in the Church today, pay close attention to the words of our current Prophet and President Thomas S. Monson.  Nearly every talk he gives is filled to the brim of miracles that are occurring throughout the Church, without measure.  So, yes, the Church does show forth the works of God in it, if we have an eye to see them, and the faith to have them.</p>
<blockquote><p>Yet the Lord hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_391835440');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_391835440');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_391835440');">&#68;&#101;&#117;&#116;. 29:4</a>)</p>
<p>  13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.<br />
  14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:<br />
  15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.<br />
  16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.<br />
  17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_199798300');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_199798300');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_199798300');">&#77;&#97;&#116;&#116;. 13:13-17</a>)</p>
<p>He that planted the ear, shall he not hear? he that formed the eye, shall he not see? (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_988937907');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_988937907');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_988937907');">&#80;&#115;. 94:9</a>)</p>
<p>And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken. (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_944366156');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_944366156');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_944366156');">&#73;&#115;&#97;. 32:3</a>)</p>
<p>Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:<br />
Fear ye not me? saith the Lord: will ye not tremble at my presence&#8230; (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_403031832');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_403031832');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_403031832');">&#74;&#101;&#114;. 5:21-22</a>)</p>
<p>Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house. (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_1857080936');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_1857080936');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_1857080936');">&#69;&#122;&#101;&#107;. 12:2</a>)</p>
<p>Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_5484960');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_5484960');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_5484960');">&#77;&#97;&#114;&#107; 8:18</a>)</p>
<p>For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated. (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_1161813465');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_1161813465');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_1161813465');">&#68;&&#67; 1:2</a>)</p>
<p>Let him that is ignorant learn wisdom by humbling himself and calling upon the Lord his God, that his eyes may be opened that he may see, and his ears opened that he may hear;<br />
For my Spirit is sent forth into the world to enlighten the humble and contrite, and to the condemnation of the ungodly. (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_662848915');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_662848915');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_662848915');">&#68;&&#67; 136:32-33</a>)</p>
<p>And he heard a voice from heaven, saying: Enoch, my son, prophesy unto this people, and say unto them--Repent, for thus saith the Lord: I am angry with this people, and my fierce anger is kindled against them; for their hearts have waxed hard, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes cannot see afar off;<br />
And for these many generations, ever since the day that I created them, have they gone astray, and have denied me, and have sought their own counsels in the dark&#8230; (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_487750481');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_487750481');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_487750481');">&#77;&#111;&#115;&#101;&#115; 6:27-28</a>)</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: spektator</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1504</link>
		<dc:creator>spektator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 13:18:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1504</guid>
		<description>It is important to remember that the priesthood or authority of ANY man is conditional upon righteousnes, lack of pride, amdition and greed. Any attempt at dominion or compulsion will result in a man&#039;s authority being null and void. We are also told that almost all men have this problem. 

Yes, Bryce. There are two options here. You can either fit the scriptures to your view or seek to understand what is in the scriptures. 

I had intended to contribute to your &#039;one true church&#039; thread but you closed it. If you will permit me, I would like to add something that is pertinent to both threads.

In 3 Nephi 27, the Lord establishes his criteria on whether an organization can be deemed as &#039;his church.&#039; Here they are:

1. If it is called in my name then it is my church (verse 8 )

This one is pretty easy. His church should be called the church of Christ, as we find noted in the scriptures. 

2. If it is built upon my gospel (verse 8 )

This one is a bit more challenging and begs the question: How does Christ define his gospel. Fortunately, He provides a clear answer later in the chapter, and summarized it in this verses 19 through 21. This reference along with three others can be used to define the gospel. These include D&amp;C 33:11-12, D&amp;C 39:6, D&amp;C 76:40-42. 

In reviewing these four references, here is the summation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He came into the world to save the world We must repent, be baptized with water and with fire and the Holy Ghost in order to receive a remission of our sins and be sanctified.

It is certainly debatable in my mind whether the church truly supports the idea of baptism of fire. This concept is foreign to most members and has been demoted to the result of a long Christ-centered life. According to the doctrine of Christ found in 2 Nephi 31:17-20, baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost is how we receive a remission of our sins and is the GATE (read entry) to the strait and narrow path to eternal life. 

On this count, the LDS church is found lacking.

3.  If it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it. But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men... (verse 10-11)

What are the works of the Father? They are the same works that Christ did when He was among the Nephites (verse 21) There is a good summary in 3 Nephi 26:13-15 with the focus on the miracles performed by Christ among the Nephites; healing all their sick and raising dead.

What do we have as criteria for the condition of the LDS church? The late President Hinckley offered this information several times in the last ten years. These markers of the condition of the church included tithing, temple attendance, building temples and meeting houses, and renovating downtown Salt Lake City. May I ask, do these sound like the works of God as defined in the scriptures? No, they are the works of men. As such, &#039;they will have joy in their works for a season.&#039; (2 Nephi 27:11)

Again, the LDS church is found wanting. 

So, according to my count, the LDS church is batting 1 out of three.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is important to remember that the priesthood or authority of ANY man is conditional upon righteousnes, lack of pride, amdition and greed. Any attempt at dominion or compulsion will result in a man&#8217;s authority being null and void. We are also told that almost all men have this problem. </p>
<p>Yes, Bryce. There are two options here. You can either fit the scriptures to your view or seek to understand what is in the scriptures. </p>
<p>I had intended to contribute to your &#8216;one true church&#8217; thread but you closed it. If you will permit me, I would like to add something that is pertinent to both threads.</p>
<p>In <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_1897374167');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_1897374167');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_1897374167');">3 &#78;&#101;&#112;&#104;&#105; 27</a>, the Lord establishes his criteria on whether an organization can be deemed as &#8216;his church.&#8217; Here they are:</p>
<p>1. If it is called in my name then it is my church (verse 8 )</p>
<p>This one is pretty easy. His church should be called the church of Christ, as we find noted in the scriptures. </p>
<p>2. If it is built upon my gospel (verse 8 )</p>
<p>This one is a bit more challenging and begs the question: How does Christ define his gospel. Fortunately, He provides a clear answer later in the chapter, and summarized it in this verses 19 through 21. This reference along with three others can be used to define the gospel. These include <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_1468433835');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_1468433835');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_1468433835');">&#68;&&#67; 33:11-12,</a> <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_1814164706');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_1814164706');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_1814164706');">&#68;&&#67; 39:6,</a> <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_973325171');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_973325171');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_973325171');">&#68;&&#67; 76:40-42</a>. </p>
<p>In reviewing these four references, here is the summation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He came into the world to save the world We must repent, be baptized with water and with fire and the Holy Ghost in order to receive a remission of our sins and be sanctified.</p>
<p>It is certainly debatable in my mind whether the church truly supports the idea of baptism of fire. This concept is foreign to most members and has been demoted to the result of a long Christ-centered life. According to the doctrine of Christ found in <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_96467032');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_96467032');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_96467032');">2 &#78;&#101;&#112;&#104;&#105; 31:17-20,</a> baptism by fire and the Holy Ghost is how we receive a remission of our sins and is the GATE (read entry) to the strait and narrow path to eternal life. </p>
<p>On this count, the LDS church is found lacking.</p>
<p>3.  If it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it. But if it be not built upon my gospel, and is built upon the works of men&#8230; (verse 10-11)</p>
<p>What are the works of the Father? They are the same works that Christ did when He was among the Nephites (verse 21) There is a good summary in <a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_856695950');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_856695950');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_856695950');">3 &#78;&#101;&#112;&#104;&#105; 26:13-15</a> with the focus on the miracles performed by Christ among the Nephites; healing all their sick and raising dead.</p>
<p>What do we have as criteria for the condition of the LDS church? The late President Hinckley offered this information several times in the last ten years. These markers of the condition of the church included tithing, temple attendance, building temples and meeting houses, and renovating downtown Salt Lake City. May I ask, do these sound like the works of God as defined in the scriptures? No, they are the works of men. As such, &#8216;they will have joy in their works for a season.&#8217; (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_568131624');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_568131624');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_568131624');">2 &#78;&#101;&#112;&#104;&#105; 27:11</a>)</p>
<p>Again, the LDS church is found wanting. </p>
<p>So, according to my count, the LDS church is batting 1 out of three.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1493</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 03:28:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1493</guid>
		<description>spektator,

Just remember, authority is always and has always been conferred by the laying on of hands by those in authority.  That is the eternal order of things.  Consequently, that must have been the mode by which Alma received his authority to baptize, just as Joseph and Oliver.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>spektator,</p>
<p>Just remember, authority is always and has always been conferred by the laying on of hands by those in authority.  That is the eternal order of things.  Consequently, that must have been the mode by which Alma received his authority to baptize, just as Joseph and Oliver.</p>
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		<title>By: spektator</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1487</link>
		<dc:creator>spektator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Aug 2008 01:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1487</guid>
		<description>May I touch on the &#039;Alma&#039; question again. We know that when Noah became king, he &quot;put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts.&quot; (Mosiah 11:5)  I have to assume that &quot;all&quot; in this circumstance means ALL. A rational conclusion would be that this represented a break with the line of ordinations of priests, if that were even the case. 

Once Alma exits the court of Noah and begins teaching, he next brings the people to the waters of Mormon. I find it very interesting that when he takes  Helam into the water, he asks &quot;O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.&quot; (Mosiah 18:12) This seems to be a plea for &#039;authority.&#039; He plea is answered as the Spirit of the Lord  comes upon him (verse 12) and then proceeds to baptize him &#039;having authority.&quot; Rather then depend on a missing link, I prefer to pull the most rational meaning out of the text of the scriptures. This scenario, where Alma gets his authority directly from God, is equally plausible to your &#039;missing&#039; information. How is it that God cannot call Alma to restore the knowledge and practice of the gospel? Perhaps, the intent of the story of Alma is to demonstrate just that point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>May I touch on the &#8216;Alma&#8217; question again. We know that when Noah became king, he &#8220;put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts.&#8221; (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_1186861346');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_1186861346');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_1186861346');">&#77;&#111;&#115;&#105;&#97;&#104; 11:5</a>)  I have to assume that &#8220;all&#8221; in this circumstance means ALL. A rational conclusion would be that this represented a break with the line of ordinations of priests, if that were even the case. </p>
<p>Once Alma exits the court of Noah and begins teaching, he next brings the people to the waters of Mormon. I find it very interesting that when he takes  Helam into the water, he asks &#8220;O Lord, pour out thy Spirit upon thy servant, that he may do this work with holiness of heart.&#8221; (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_694695050');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_694695050');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_694695050');">&#77;&#111;&#115;&#105;&#97;&#104; 18:12</a>) This seems to be a plea for &#8216;authority.&#8217; He plea is answered as the Spirit of the Lord  comes upon him (verse 12) and then proceeds to baptize him &#8216;having authority.&#8221; Rather then depend on a missing link, I prefer to pull the most rational meaning out of the text of the scriptures. This scenario, where Alma gets his authority directly from God, is equally plausible to your &#8216;missing&#8217; information. How is it that God cannot call Alma to restore the knowledge and practice of the gospel? Perhaps, the intent of the story of Alma is to demonstrate just that point.</p>
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		<title>By: David Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1477</link>
		<dc:creator>David Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Aug 2008 21:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1477</guid>
		<description>Bryce:

Good points. 

One note. Joseph and Oliver did baptize each other unto repentance (there were no authorized presidencies on the earth). They were re- baptized when the church was restored .

-David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryce:</p>
<p>Good points. </p>
<p>One note. Joseph and Oliver did baptize each other unto repentance (there were no authorized presidencies on the earth). They were re- baptized when the church was restored .</p>
<p>-David</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1431</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:21:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1431</guid>
		<description>I agree that the use of the term &quot;keys&quot; is twofold.  The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states this:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The keys of the priesthood refer to the right to exercise power in the name of Jesus Christ &lt;b&gt;OR&lt;/b&gt; to preside over a priesthood function, quorum, or organizational division of the Church.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It is in the first sense of the word that every priesthood holder has keys to perform ordinances in the name of Jesus Christ.  Elder McConkie also agrees with this:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Two different usages of the term keys are found in the revelations. One has reference to the directive powers whereby the Church or kingdom and all its organizations are governed, the keys of the kingdom being the powers of presidency. The other usage refers to the means provided whereby something is revealed, discovered, or made manifest. (Mormon Doctrine)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The &quot;rights, powers, and authority&quot; that are conferred when someone is ordained to an office in the priesthood are keys (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=2ca59207f7c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;).  It is the authority to perform ordinances.

I agree that Joseph (and Oliver) were given all the keys over time.  However, as soon as they were given the Aaronic Priesthood they had the keys (or authority) to baptize each other.  In an interesting twist of the natural timing of things, they ordained each other &lt;u&gt;after&lt;/u&gt; they baptized each other.  But that&#039;s what they were commanded to do.

As you said, I think it is not improper to say that whenever anyone performs a priesthood ordinance, it is by the keys (or authority) that they have been given to do so.  Keys are twofold.  1)  Authority of presidency.  2)  Authority to perform ordinances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that the use of the term &#8220;keys&#8221; is twofold.  The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states this:</p>
<blockquote><p>The keys of the priesthood refer to the right to exercise power in the name of Jesus Christ <b>OR</b> to preside over a priesthood function, quorum, or organizational division of the Church.</p></blockquote>
<p>It is in the first sense of the word that every priesthood holder has keys to perform ordinances in the name of Jesus Christ.  Elder McConkie also agrees with this:</p>
<blockquote><p>Two different usages of the term keys are found in the revelations. One has reference to the directive powers whereby the Church or kingdom and all its organizations are governed, the keys of the kingdom being the powers of presidency. The other usage refers to the means provided whereby something is revealed, discovered, or made manifest. (Mormon Doctrine)</p></blockquote>
<p>The &#8220;rights, powers, and authority&#8221; that are conferred when someone is ordained to an office in the priesthood are keys (<a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=da135f74db46c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=2ca59207f7c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____" rel="nofollow">link</a>).  It is the authority to perform ordinances.</p>
<p>I agree that Joseph (and Oliver) were given all the keys over time.  However, as soon as they were given the Aaronic Priesthood they had the keys (or authority) to baptize each other.  In an interesting twist of the natural timing of things, they ordained each other <u>after</u> they baptized each other.  But that&#8217;s what they were commanded to do.</p>
<p>As you said, I think it is not improper to say that whenever anyone performs a priesthood ordinance, it is by the keys (or authority) that they have been given to do so.  Keys are twofold.  1)  Authority of presidency.  2)  Authority to perform ordinances.</p>
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		<title>By: David Littlefield</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1428</link>
		<dc:creator>David Littlefield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 22:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1428</guid>
		<description>Bryce:

I think we have a language problem. IMHO, “actual” keys are only given by the laying on of hands, and reside in a president, bishop, apostle, etc.. And they are not given when priesthood is given. They are given when set apart to a presidency etc. (however apostles each have all the keys necessary to run the kingdom).

Now, it may not be improper in a less specific sense to say that when just a regular elder does a baptism, he did it with the “keys,” but I think this usage of the word “keys” is meaning authority in a less technical sense, a general acknowledgment of proper authority, meaning it was done under the umbrella of authority.

Notice that in the restoration process, Joseph Smith had the priesthood, but keys were given over a period of time. Because he had the priesthood at first, does not mean he had authority to administer the temple ordinances, until he received those keys.

When the bishop authorizes me to do a baptism, he has not given me keys in a specific technical sense, but in a general sense, because I am working under his keys.

In at least two senses, the word &quot;keys&quot; can be equated with the word &quot;authority.&quot; But the authority of keys authority is beyond just holding the priesthood. That is why we are not given keys when we receive the priesthood. IMHO.

-David</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryce:</p>
<p>I think we have a language problem. IMHO, "actual" keys are only given by the laying on of hands, and reside in a president, bishop, apostle, etc.. And they are not given when priesthood is given. They are given when set apart to a presidency etc. (however apostles each have all the keys necessary to run the kingdom).</p>
<p>Now, it may not be improper in a less specific sense to say that when just a regular elder does a baptism, he did it with the "keys," but I think this usage of the word "keys" is meaning authority in a less technical sense, a general acknowledgment of proper authority, meaning it was done under the umbrella of authority.</p>
<p>Notice that in the restoration process, Joseph Smith had the priesthood, but keys were given over a period of time. Because he had the priesthood at first, does not mean he had authority to administer the temple ordinances, until he received those keys.</p>
<p>When the bishop authorizes me to do a baptism, he has not given me keys in a specific technical sense, but in a general sense, because I am working under his keys.</p>
<p>In at least two senses, the word &#8220;keys&#8221; can be equated with the word &#8220;authority.&#8221; But the authority of keys authority is beyond just holding the priesthood. That is why we are not given keys when we receive the priesthood. IMHO.</p>
<p>-David</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/07/29/keys-of-authority-in-the-book-of-mormon/comment-page-1/#comment-1416</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jul 2008 17:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=548#comment-1416</guid>
		<description>David,

What about President Joseph F. Smith&#039;s teachings above?  When the presidency authorizes priesthood ordinances to be performed, it is because they have given the officiators keys to do the work, have they not?  The officiator can&#039;t give them to others, and the presiding authority can revoke those keys at any time, but they nevertheless still hold them.  In other words, the officiator has authoritative keys to perform ordinances, not presiding keys to give them to others or to direct the work of others.  That is how they can perform their labors with authority, under the direction and conferral of keys by the presiding authority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,</p>
<p>What about President Joseph F. Smith&#8217;s teachings above?  When the presidency authorizes priesthood ordinances to be performed, it is because they have given the officiators keys to do the work, have they not?  The officiator can&#8217;t give them to others, and the presiding authority can revoke those keys at any time, but they nevertheless still hold them.  In other words, the officiator has authoritative keys to perform ordinances, not presiding keys to give them to others or to direct the work of others.  That is how they can perform their labors with authority, under the direction and conferral of keys by the presiding authority.</p>
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