Comments on: The Fall of Adam and Eve in the Armenian Aprocrypha http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:33:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Melissa http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-4055 Melissa Mon, 03 Aug 2009 22:01:27 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-4055 Thanks, David Larsen. I just found this Temple Study site over the weekend and I love it! I have been a Nibley "scholar" for the past 7 years and it is very difficult to find local members to talk to who have an interest in the deeper research of the Gospel. Thanks, David Larsen. I just found this Temple Study site over the weekend and I love it! I have been a Nibley “scholar” for the past 7 years and it is very difficult to find local members to talk to who have an interest in the deeper research of the Gospel.

]]> By: David Larsen http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-4053 David Larsen Mon, 03 Aug 2009 03:42:42 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-4053 Melissa, The Cave of Treasures is great! However, I certainly wouldn't take it as "scripture" or as an authoritative account of the Adam and Eve story. Sometimes when we read these texts we need to take into account when they were written, by whom, and also realize that they only represent a certain strand of tradition or combination of traditions. The Cave of Treasures is attributed to Ephrem of Syria, who, although he was a brilliant theologian and writer, lived in the 4th century AD and was exposed to all kinds of different traditions, both Jewish and Christian, regarding Adam and Eve. Genesis says that they were given coats of "skins". It doesn't specify, at least in English, what kind of skins. Did God have to go kill some animals to give Adam and Eve these "skins"? That's a good question. I think the translator is giving a great insight when he says that there was no reproduction yet. Of course, we just can't know if it was animal skins or tree bark or something else. What Ephrem is telling us in the Book of Treasures was likely his best interpretation of what happened or a tradition passed on to him, perhaps by some old animal activist Christians (J/K). However, most modern interpreters do understand these "skins" to be animals skins, and interpret this giving of skins as a result of the institution of animal sacrifice by God as a symbol to Adam and Eve of Christ's atoning sacrifice. The Hebrew word used in Gen 3:21 ('or) does usually refer to an animal skin, hide, or leather. In the Greek (which is what most Christians would have read, initially), the word (dermatinos) also refers to animals skin or leather. So your understanding of them being animal skins is probably the safest bet. I'm not sure where Ephrem got that tradition, and it would be interesting to know, but it seems to be outside a normative interpretation. One more note--it is interesting in the dictionaries where I looked up the Greek and Hebrew translations, both indicate that this "garment" was supposed to be a long undergarment worn next to the skin and that priests wore this garment. Of course that is probably no surprise for readers of this blog. Melissa,
The Cave of Treasures is great! However, I certainly wouldn’t take it as “scripture” or as an authoritative account of the Adam and Eve story. Sometimes when we read these texts we need to take into account when they were written, by whom, and also realize that they only represent a certain strand of tradition or combination of traditions. The Cave of Treasures is attributed to Ephrem of Syria, who, although he was a brilliant theologian and writer, lived in the 4th century AD and was exposed to all kinds of different traditions, both Jewish and Christian, regarding Adam and Eve.
Genesis says that they were given coats of “skins”. It doesn’t specify, at least in English, what kind of skins. Did God have to go kill some animals to give Adam and Eve these “skins”? That’s a good question. I think the translator is giving a great insight when he says that there was no reproduction yet. Of course, we just can’t know if it was animal skins or tree bark or something else. What Ephrem is telling us in the Book of Treasures was likely his best interpretation of what happened or a tradition passed on to him, perhaps by some old animal activist Christians (J/K).
However, most modern interpreters do understand these “skins” to be animals skins, and interpret this giving of skins as a result of the institution of animal sacrifice by God as a symbol to Adam and Eve of Christ’s atoning sacrifice.
The Hebrew word used in Gen 3:21 (‘or) does usually refer to an animal skin, hide, or leather. In the Greek (which is what most Christians would have read, initially), the word (dermatinos) also refers to animals skin or leather. So your understanding of them being animal skins is probably the safest bet. I’m not sure where Ephrem got that tradition, and it would be interesting to know, but it seems to be outside a normative interpretation.
One more note–it is interesting in the dictionaries where I looked up the Greek and Hebrew translations, both indicate that this “garment” was supposed to be a long undergarment worn next to the skin and that priests wore this garment. Of course that is probably no surprise for readers of this blog.

]]> By: Melissa http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-4052 Melissa Mon, 03 Aug 2009 00:24:34 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-4052 I just read an Adam book called The Cave of Treasures. It said that God clothed Adam and Eve with "skins" made from the inner bark of trees (?? ) I always thought it was animal skins. The translator reasons that there were no animals to kill because in Eden there were just one set of each kind--one male, one female--and no reproductions yet. Does anyone know of a clarification of these ideas? I just read an Adam book called The Cave of Treasures. It said that God clothed Adam and Eve with “skins” made from the inner bark of trees (?? ) I always thought it was animal skins. The translator reasons that there were no animals to kill because in Eden there were just one set of each kind–one male, one female–and no reproductions yet. Does anyone know of a clarification of these ideas?

]]> By: Lee http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-3822 Lee Tue, 26 May 2009 19:54:06 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-3822 There is more about Adam and Eve losing their brightness and their eyes no longer seeing as they could before in The Forgotten Books of Eden: First [and Second] Book of Adam and Eve. There is more about Adam and Eve losing their brightness and their eyes no longer seeing as they could before in The Forgotten Books of Eden: First [and Second] Book of Adam and Eve.

]]> By: David http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-3343 David Tue, 03 Mar 2009 16:03:40 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-3343 It's not a baptism, per se. Adam is seeking out acts of penance to repent for his sin, for at this point no such way has yet been revealed. He gets an idea, and runs with it, and has Eve perform the same. It's a form of self-torture. It’s not a baptism, per se. Adam is seeking out acts of penance to repent for his sin, for at this point no such way has yet been revealed. He gets an idea, and runs with it, and has Eve perform the same. It’s a form of self-torture.

]]> By: Bryce Haymond http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-2710 Bryce Haymond Fri, 10 Oct 2008 04:11:22 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-2710 Thanks David for the Slavonic reference! Very interesting. It seems that this is also evidence of Adam's baptism. Could this be compared with Moses 6:64? Thanks David for the Slavonic reference! Very interesting. It seems that this is also evidence of Adam’s baptism. Could this be compared with Moses 6:64?

]]> By: David Larsen http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-2708 David Larsen Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:58:15 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-2708 Sorry, I had some technical difficulties there. The text I just posted was from the Slavonic "Life of Adam and Eve." You can see it at: http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/slanev.htm In this translation it says "tokens" but in other translations it says "features." It would be good to talk to someone who knows Slavonic to see what the original word is. Bryce, this was a great post! I'm glad you put that "God was once a man" line in there. I am wanting to use that in a paper for school, but it is so hard to find any background for where such a notion came from. I will check out J. Tvedtnes' paper that you linked to. Thanks! David Sorry, I had some technical difficulties there. The text I just posted was from the Slavonic “Life of Adam and Eve.” You can see it at: http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/slanev.htm
In this translation it says “tokens” but in other translations it says “features.” It would be good to talk to someone who knows Slavonic to see what the original word is.

Bryce, this was a great post! I’m glad you put that “God was once a man” line in there. I am wanting to use that in a paper for school, but it is so hard to find any background for where such a notion came from. I will check out J. Tvedtnes’ paper that you linked to. Thanks!

David

]]> By: David Larsen http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-2707 David Larsen Fri, 10 Oct 2008 02:52:21 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-2707 xxxvi 1 And Adam said to me: 'Haste thee to the river, named Tigris, and take a great stone and place it under thy feet, and enter into the stream and clothe thyself with water, as with a cloak, up to the neck, and pray to God in thy heart and let no word proceed out of thy mouth.' And 2 I said: 'O (my) lord, with my whole heart will I call upon God.' And Adam said to me: 3 'Take great care of thyself. Except thou seest me and all my tokens, depart not out of the water, nor trust in the words, which are said to thee, lest thou fall again into the snare.' And 4 Adam came to Jordan and he entered into the water and he plunged himself altogether into the flood, even (to) the hairs of his head, while he made supplication to God and sent (up) prayers to Him. xxxvi 1 And Adam said to me: ‘Haste thee to the river, named Tigris, and take a great stone and place it under thy feet, and enter into the stream and clothe thyself with water, as with a cloak, up to the neck, and pray to God in thy heart and let no word proceed out of thy mouth.’ And
2 I said: ‘O (my) lord, with my whole heart will I call upon God.’ And Adam said to me:
3 ‘Take great care of thyself. Except thou seest me and all my tokens, depart not out of the water, nor trust in the words, which are said to thee, lest thou fall again into the snare.’ And
4 Adam came to Jordan and he entered into the water and he plunged himself altogether into the flood, even (to) the hairs of his head, while he made supplication to God and sent (up) prayers to Him.

]]> By: Bryce Haymond http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-2704 Bryce Haymond Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:22:05 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-2704 I would be interested in the Slavonic sources you mention Manuel. Please let us know when you find them. I would be interested in the Slavonic sources you mention Manuel. Please let us know when you find them.

]]> By: Manuel http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/07/the-fall-of-adam-and-eve-in-the-armenian-aprocrypha/comment-page-1/#comment-2700 Manuel Thu, 09 Oct 2008 06:26:22 +0000 http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1088#comment-2700 Oh this brings back so many good memories! I studied many apocryphal accounts of the fall of Adam and Eve. It is amazing the things that can be found on those documents. I remember (I think in the Slavonic version) that Adam and Eve, after being cast out of the Garden of Eden, go into a state of penitence and fasting. They knew Satan would try to distract them from their fast and agree to communicate with each other through "tokens" so that they would know their communication is genuine and not from Satan. I think Adam says to Eve that he will come and find her, but to not believe what he says unless he presents to her the "token." I will have to go back and find this and post it here! Oh this brings back so many good memories! I studied many apocryphal accounts of the fall of Adam and Eve. It is amazing the things that can be found on those documents.

I remember (I think in the Slavonic version) that Adam and Eve, after being cast out of the Garden of Eden, go into a state of penitence and fasting. They knew Satan would try to distract them from their fast and agree to communicate with each other through “tokens” so that they would know their communication is genuine and not from Satan.

I think Adam says to Eve that he will come and find her, but to not believe what he says unless he presents to her the “token.” I will have to go back and find this and post it here!

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