Thanks for your comment. I don’t believe there is a conflict. The presumption is that we must be tempted in order to be obedient. I don’t believe that is true. Satan will be bound for 1000 years in which he won’t be able to tempt anyone. Will no one be able to be obedient then during that time?

Obedience doesn’t require temptation, at least not in the sense of being persuaded to do evil or sin. Yes, there must be an opposition in all things in order for agency and obedience to exist, but not temptation.

Good discussion. I don’t want to discount your opinions, but they are just “opinions”. What is most troubling about this conversation is the fact that we have several conflicting quotes from general authorities. Joseph Fielding Smith says, speaking of little children who die before age eight, “and all the blessings will be theirs through their obedience”. Note that this prophet says they will receive all the blessings ACCORDING TO THEIR OBEDIENCE. Obedience to what? If they can’t ever be tempted, then they can’t prove themselves “obedient”. Thus, the conundrum. Either they WILL be tempted at some point in time (what about the short season at the end of the millennium when satan is loosed into the world again?) and be allowed to exercise their agency in order to obey, or they will not. You can’t have it both ways even though past General Authorities of the church have expressed opinions on BOTH sides. It just doesn’t jibe.

You said, “It is true that the sons of perdition will be resurrected with a new body. But without partaking of the tree of life they will not be able to sustain that perfect body and it will be destroyed. Only the righteous will be able to have access to the fruit that gives never-ending physical life.”

Please tell me where you get this. I have never heard this before, that a resurrected body will subsequently be destroyed. My scripture reading teaches me the contrary:

The soul shall be restored to the body, and the body to the soul; yea, and every limb and joint shall be restored to its body; yea, even a hair of the head shall not be lost; but all things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame. (Alma 40:23)

Please show me where this restoration will subsequently be destroyed.

And yes, we do know about what order or glory the Garden of Eden and world was in Adam’s day:

With the ushering in of the millennium, “the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory” (Tenth Article of Faith); that is, it will return to the edenic, terrestrial state which existed when the Lord God finished the creative enterprise and pronounced everything that he had made, “very good.” (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 494)

In another place Elder McConkie said:

The first man, Adam, was placed on earth in an Edenic or paradisiacal or terrestrial state, in which there was neither procreation nor death… In the coming millennial day it will be renewed and receive again its paradisiacal glory and will thus return to its terrestrial or Edenic state… (Millennial Messiah: The Second Coming of the Son of Man, 613)

Br. Osborn, when it comes down to either believing an apostle of the Lord or Br. Osborn, I choose the apostle. Why do you believe that we should believe you over Elder McConkie? Because of your logic?

We have NOT been given a telestial law. We have, even now, the celestial law, if we are willing to live it. It is that celestial law that is preparing us for a celestial glory. Baptism and all of the subsequent ordinances prepare us to enter into celestial glory. The Lord has not given us any less. I repeat:

And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. (D&C 105:4-5)

Furthermore:

For if you will that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves by doing the things which I have commanded you and required of you. (D&C 78:7)

What are we doing right now? Building up Zion. Unless it is by the law of the celestial kingdom, it is in vain. See Elder Christofferson’s latest General Conference address. That is why we need to be living all of the gospel requirements in order to attend the temple, for it is there that we enter the celestial presence. If we don’t live a celestial law, we can’t enter the celestial presence. That is why the prophets and apostles stress obtaining and being worthy of holding a temple recommend, so that we may know that we are living a celestial law, and are worthy of entering a celestial glory.

Yes, the kingdom of God on earth is set up in the telestial kingdom, but we are not worshiping a telestial law. That is what the world worships. We have been called out of that world. We have been given a celestial law to which we must be obedient if we wish to obtain a celestial glory.

As far as the covenants given in the temple are concerned? Are we not covenanting to obey them all? Yes. We are. We should be living all the laws and covenants we enter into in the temple, which lead us to the celestial presence.

Maybe you misunderstood me before on the meaning of laws and glories. Like I said earlier, all laws made by god are celestial in principle even though he does give us laws of different degrees and orders. Lower laws like the telestial and terrestrial are just basically laws and principles of the celestial in the lower degree. You pasted-

“Elder McConkie wrote:

This [telestial] law is the law of the world, and worldly people are conforming to its terms and conditions. Those who refuse to worship the true and living God, who are unclean and immoral, who are proud and rebellious, who walk in paths of wickedness, who are carnal and sensual, who do not maintain standards of decency, uprightness, and integrity, are as a result conforming their lives to the provisions of telestial law... All the inhabitants of the earth are living at least a telestial law, unless, perchance, there are some who are in open rebellion against the truth... (Mormon Doctrine, 778)”

Elder McConkie is dead wrong here! Sorry, but it is true. Telestial law is not carnality, worldliness or anything lawless of the such! Note that I said “lawless”, because that is what BRM describes as being law. This lawlessness does not bring blessings, it does not bring the presence of the Holy Ghost. In fact, if one continues in this lawlessness he will be delivered over unto hell and not be blessed! We are in the telestial kingdom right now and we have been given the law while in this kingdom- thus the law of this kingdom. It is basically the preparatory gospel- basic obedience to the “saving” part of the gospel- the part that enables us to enter into the path. It includes the blessings of the Aaronic priesthood according to the temple. The telestial law also includes the ten commandments.

We need to get out of the mindset of “telestial” being something “carnal” or “worldly”. We should remember that the Kingdom of god exists and is set up in the telestial kingdom- it is our church we belong to and worship with in meeting houses every Sunday. That kngdom will grow and proceed through this kingdom and the next and then at the end of the next it will include all of the saved and be presented spotless before the Father. As part of that Kingdom we have been given laws and principles to abide by- that advance us into the next kingdom. The Priesthood is also broken down into 3 degrees of order they are-

Telestial: Aaronic
Terrestrial: Melchizedik
Celestial: Patriarchal

In the temple as we progress from kingdom to kingdom as part of our eternal progression, we are given laws to obey that pertain to differing standards or degrees of the priesthood which translate directly into differing levels of righteous obedience. The important principle though is that all three priesthoods are required to enter the celestial glory because all three degrees of the law make up the celestial law in its fulness. Joseph Smiths view of the eternities was forever changing throughout his life. In the end Joseph knew that it would be impossible for man to be saved from hell without compliance to the gospel law- it being the only law that exists. He came to understand that the gospel law itself was made up of degrees of glory- that it represented the rungs of a ladder that must be climbed one at a time (without skipping any) until one reaches perfection in the highest law or kingdom. That said, I do not agree that one can go from telestial glory (what we have right now) immediately into the celestial at resurrection. We have to experience the terretrial order and learn according to its principles before we can advance to the celestial just as the temple teaches. The endowment is specific in that all men must pass through and covenant with law in both of the lower kingdoms of glory before they can be enthroned in glory in the celestial. It truly is line upon line.

The tree of life is mentioned in the Book of Revelations. It exists only within the “holy city”- the New Jerusalem (the celestial kingdom).-

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

(New Testament | Revelation 2:7)

1 AND he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(New Testament | Revelation 22:1 – 2)

Many have supposed that the “tree of life” mentioned here is a different tree than the one in the garden of Eden but in fact they are the same. It is true that the sons of perdition will be resurrected with a new body. But without partaking of the tree of life they willnot be able to sustain that perfect body and it will be destroyed. Only the righteous will be able to have access to the fruit that gives never-ending physical life.

28 And I said unto them that it was an awful gulf, which separated the wicked from the tree of life, and also from the saints of God.
29 And I said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell, which the angel said unto me was prepared for the wicked.

As far as the garden and world in Adams day are concerned, we do not know of what order or glory it was.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 15:28 – 29)

Again, I disagree. Your theory sounds good, but it is not backed by any authoritative voice. Your “research” is based upon your own thoughts. Please give me some scriptures or quotes from the Brethren on this, and I will agree more readily.

For example, you said “everyone who has thus lived on the earth have only had the opportunity or ability to live up to the telestial level of the law while learning about higher terrestrial and celestial laws.” This is entirely not true! According to the scriptures, Zion can only be established on earth when we are living the law of the celestial kingdom:

And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself. (D&C 105:5)

We cannot receive a celestial glory unless we are living a celestial law. All of the ordinances that have been given to us thus far pertain to the celestial kingdom, not the telestial or terrestrial:

The scriptures are very clear in declaring that baptism is for the celestial kingdom only. For a place in the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom, baptism is not required.

The Prophet Joseph Smith said:

“. . . A man may be saved, after the judgment, in the terrestrial kingdom, or in the telestial kingdom, but he can never see the celestial kingdom of God, without being born of water and the Spirit” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 12.).

The kingdom of God mentioned by the Savior in his conversation with Nicodemus points clearly to the fact that it is the celestial kingdom that is meant. This is also implied in the instructions given by our Savior to his apostles when he left them. They were to go into all the world and preach the gospel, all who accepted and were baptized should enter the celestial kingdom, but all others would be damned, or be assigned to one of the other kingdoms. (Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, 147)

In another place President Smith said:

The First Presidency have said in answer to a similar question: “We know of no ordinances pertaining to the terrestrial or the telestial kingdom. All of the ordinances of the gospel are given for the salvation of men in the celestial kingdom and pertain unto that kingdom.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:330)

All the principles and ordinances that we practice today are celestial principles and ordinances. It is the world that lives a telestial law; the Saints should be living a celestial law. Living a celestial law prepares us to receive a celestial glory. If we live the principles, laws, ordinances, and covenants of the temple, we are living a celestial law.

Elder McConkie wrote:

This [telestial] law is the law of the world, and worldly people are conforming to its terms and conditions. Those who refuse to worship the true and living God, who are unclean and immoral, who are proud and rebellious, who walk in paths of wickedness, who are carnal and sensual, who do not maintain standards of decency, uprightness, and integrity, are as a result conforming their lives to the provisions of telestial law… All the inhabitants of the earth are living at least a telestial law, unless, perchance, there are some who are in open rebellion against the truth… (Mormon Doctrine, 778)

On the other hand, the celestial law is:

That law by obedience to which men gain an inheritance in the kingdom of God in eternity is called celestial law. It is the law of the gospel, the law of Christ, and it qualifies men for admission to the celestial kingdom because in and through it men are “sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost,” thus becoming clean, pure, and spotless… Those who have the companionship of the Holy Ghost and are guided thereby in their lives are “able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom,” including the law of consecration or anything else the Lord might ask of them. They are the ones who -- “united according to the union required by the law of the celestial kingdom” (D. & C. 105:1-5) -- will build up Zion in the last days. (Mormon Doctrine, 117)

I don’t believe there will be a progression from a telestial resurrected state to a celestial resurrected state. We are living either a telestial, terrestrial, or celestial law right now, and depending on our faithfulness to that law determines how we will be resurrected when that day comes.

I’m not sure what you mean when you say that people will not have perfect immortal resurrected bodies. Resurrection, by definition, means a perfect immortal resurrected body. All will be resurrected with such a body, even the sons of perdition. Each will have a different glory associated with it, but the words “perfect” and “immortal” always refer to a resurrected body.

There really isn’t much information regarding the resurrection at the beginning of the millennium. People assume that they will be resurrected to the glory that they will inherit in the end- that it is somehow unchangeable. People also assume that they will be resurrected with the glory that they have lived up to in mortality. Many saints therefore suppose that they will be resurrected with the celestial glory at the beginning of the millennium because they have obeyed the law of the gospel. The problem is however that they have only lived up to a part of the law of the gospel- not its fulness which is what celestial glory is. The other problem is that they assume that they can go from the telestial kingdom straight to the celestial kingdom.

There are many errors in our thinking when it comes to discussing the glories and the kingdoms of glory. Many have supposed that telestial law and glory is obedience to worldly (carnal) laws while terrestrial law is a law of delayed gratification etc.. They then suppose that anything righteous is only celestial law and therefore their resurrection must be celestial in grade. What many do not realize is that anything less than the fulness of gods laws are that of a lower order or kingdom. These lower orders though are not unrighteous laws in any means though. In fact, the two lower orders of law in their fulness make up the majority of celestial law. All laws from god are celestial in nature, he has just given them to us in order of degrees so that we can learn them.

As this pertains to the discussion, everyone who has thus lived on the earth have only had the opportunity or ability to live up to the telestial level of the law while learning about higher terrestrial and celestial laws. Therefore, when the resurrection at the beginning of the millennium occurs, they will thus only come forth by the next level of law which will be the terrestrial. The pattern of the temple is very plain in this application-

We start our lives in the telestial kingdom where we can learn the most basic of principles and laws that save us. We are given the glory of the Holy Ghost while in this kingdom. Through obedience in this kingdom, we can receive the telestial blessings that are given to the faithful. These include being blessed with health or strength, authority to act in gods name, the gift of the holy ghost, etc. From here (this the telestial kingdom) we advance into the terrestrial kingdom which will be the earth during the millennium. The glory of the terrestrial kingdom will be all the blessings of the telestial along with the presence of Jesus Christ. This magnified glory (both the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ) will be that of the terrestrial glory. We will recieve different blessings in this kingdom than the previous. Some of these include no disease, no death, more light and knowledge concerning the mysteries of godliness, etc.

After we have shown obedience to the further laws god reveals in the terrestrial kingdom we shall be brought before the veil and give an accounting of our works (all the keys, signs, tokens and agreements we have entered into and kept accordingly), This is the final judgment/last judgment. If we prove faithful we will advance into celestial glory- the only place where the tree of life exists- the tree which gives never-ending physical and spiritual life. Remember that the “tree of life” is the same tree as the one that was in the garden for Adam and Eve. They were cut off from that tree when they disobeyed god because if they had eaten of the fruit of it they would have lived forever (physically). This same tree will exist on the celestial sphere as a blessing for the righteous to partake of.

This fruit is what grants the blessing of power over death (physical and spiritual). It is only given in the celestial glory though. It is a fruit that sustains an immortal body. People up to this point may have resurrected bodies, but until they can partake of the tree of life they do not have perfect immortal resurrected bodies. Christ at the end of the millennium will be given his perfect immortal body also- one without nail impressions in it and a hole in his side. Remember that only when a person is brought before a “celestial grade” body do they need to be transfigured in the body to see it. When Christ was resurrected, people did not need to be transfigured before him to behold his resurrected presence. This is because he only had a terrestrial/ telestial glory of body. It was not yet perfected and eternal.

There is a lot more work and research to do but i am quite convinced at this point that celestial resurrected bodies are the only bodies that are perfect (eternal in nature and therefore perfectly immortal).

That’s a lot of assumptions. Continued growing, maturing, and learning does not necessarily equate with a necessity of ordinances.