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	<title>Comments on: A Prophet Declares &#8220;Redistribution of Wealth&#8221; is Socialism</title>
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		<title>By: Nibley on the Redistribution of Wealth &#183; Believe All Things</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-4602</link>
		<dc:creator>Nibley on the Redistribution of Wealth &#183; Believe All Things</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Oct 2009 18:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-4602</guid>
		<description>[...] &#124; 35 comments   Part 8 of 8 in the series Notes on SocialismYesterday, I read Bryce&#8217;s post A Prophet Declares “Redistribution of Wealth” is Socialism. If you read through the comments to that post, you may have noticed it generated quite a debate [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] | 35 comments   Part 8 of 8 in the series Notes on SocialismYesterday, I read Bryce&#8217;s post A Prophet Declares "Redistribution of Wealth" is Socialism. If you read through the comments to that post, you may have noticed it generated quite a debate [...]</p>
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		<title>By: New Book of Mormon Text Discovered! &#171; The Sunday Page</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-2913</link>
		<dc:creator>New Book of Mormon Text Discovered! &#171; The Sunday Page</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 18:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-2913</guid>
		<description>[...] is authentic. Supporters of SBoM have postulated that perhaps President Ezra Taft Benson (given his anti-socialist persuasion) has edited these key passages to produce what we now know as BoM. Detractors from SBoM argue that [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] is authentic. Supporters of SBoM have postulated that perhaps President Ezra Taft Benson (given his anti-socialist persuasion) has edited these key passages to produce what we now know as BoM. Detractors from SBoM argue that [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-2907</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 03:59:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-2907</guid>
		<description>Steven Montgomery sent me a link to an article he wrote entitled &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.geocities.com/graymada/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Perfect Law of Liberty&lt;/a&gt;,&quot; which is a very well-written commentary on what freedom is, and the relationship of the gospel of Jesus Christ to that freedom.  I particularly agree with his comments about how we may use the &quot;measuring rod&quot; of agency to judge the actions of all men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steven Montgomery sent me a link to an article he wrote entitled &#8220;<a href="http://www.geocities.com/graymada/" rel="nofollow">The Perfect Law of Liberty</a>,&#8221; which is a very well-written commentary on what freedom is, and the relationship of the gospel of Jesus Christ to that freedom.  I particularly agree with his comments about how we may use the &#8220;measuring rod&#8221; of agency to judge the actions of all men.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-2904</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-2904</guid>
		<description>I just received some other great quotes from one our readers, Ferreira.  Below is a letter from the First Presidency (Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., and David O. McKay) to the U.S. Treasury, dated September 30, 1941, and quoted by Elder H. Verlan Andersen in “The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil&quot;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Thus, according to the gospel plan under which the Church is established and operates, &lt;b&gt;the care of the widow, the orphan, and the poor, &lt;u&gt;is a Church function&lt;/u&gt;, is a part of the brotherhood of man which underlies our whole social and religious life&lt;/b&gt;. As God’s children all, and as brothers and sisters in Christ, we must as a matter of spiritual responsibility and pursuant to positive divine command care for the helpless, the unfortunate, and the needy. &lt;b&gt;Furthermore, it is essentially a neighbor to neighbor obligation. &lt;u&gt;It is not a function of civil government&lt;/u&gt;. This is fundamental.&lt;/b&gt;

The primary aim of this program is to provide for the material wants of faithful members of the Church who find themselves now in difficulty, to rebuild them spiritually, and to restore to them the proper concept, pride, and appreciation of American citizenship.  No effort has been spared to teach the people to be self reliant, independent, to take a humble, righteous pride in being, individually and as communities, fully self supporting....

We therefore look with sorrowing eyes at the present use to which a great part of the funds being raised by taxes and by borrowing is being put. We believe that our real threat comes from within and not from without, and it comes from the underlying spirit common to Naziism, Fascism, and Communism, namely, the spirit which would array class against class, which would set up a socialistic state of some sort, which would rob the people of the liberties which we possess under the Constitution, and would set up such a reign of terror as exists now in many parts of Europe. (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.inspiredconstitution.org/hva_great/appendix_3.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Another from President Harold B. Lee:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Now, keep in mind with all the crowding in of the socialistic reform programs that are threatening the very foundation of the Church, we must never forget what the Lord said, “that the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world” (D&amp;C 78:14). Whenever we allow ourselves to become entangled and have to be subsidized from government sources—and we think that it’s the expedient way to do business in this day—or when we yield to such pressures, I warn you that government subsidies are not the Lord’s way; and if we begin to accept, we are on our way to becoming subsidized politically as well as financially. (Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, [1996], p. 314-115)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Thanks Ferreira!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just received some other great quotes from one our readers, Ferreira.  Below is a letter from the First Presidency (Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, Jr., and David O. McKay) to the U.S. Treasury, dated September 30, 1941, and quoted by Elder H. Verlan Andersen in "The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil&#8221;:</p>
<blockquote><p>Thus, according to the gospel plan under which the Church is established and operates, <b>the care of the widow, the orphan, and the poor, <u>is a Church function</u>, is a part of the brotherhood of man which underlies our whole social and religious life</b>. As God's children all, and as brothers and sisters in Christ, we must as a matter of spiritual responsibility and pursuant to positive divine command care for the helpless, the unfortunate, and the needy. <b>Furthermore, it is essentially a neighbor to neighbor obligation. <u>It is not a function of civil government</u>. This is fundamental.</b></p>
<p>The primary aim of this program is to provide for the material wants of faithful members of the Church who find themselves now in difficulty, to rebuild them spiritually, and to restore to them the proper concept, pride, and appreciation of American citizenship.  No effort has been spared to teach the people to be self reliant, independent, to take a humble, righteous pride in being, individually and as communities, fully self supporting&#8230;.</p>
<p>We therefore look with sorrowing eyes at the present use to which a great part of the funds being raised by taxes and by borrowing is being put. We believe that our real threat comes from within and not from without, and it comes from the underlying spirit common to Naziism, Fascism, and Communism, namely, the spirit which would array class against class, which would set up a socialistic state of some sort, which would rob the people of the liberties which we possess under the Constitution, and would set up such a reign of terror as exists now in many parts of Europe. (<a href="http://www.inspiredconstitution.org/hva_great/appendix_3.html" rel="nofollow">link</a>)</p></blockquote>
<p>Another from President Harold B. Lee:</p>
<blockquote><p>Now, keep in mind with all the crowding in of the socialistic reform programs that are threatening the very foundation of the Church, we must never forget what the Lord said, "that the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world" (<a style="padding:1px;color:#901808;text-decoration:;" href="#" onclick="linkClick('dslink_2100313046');return false;" onmouseover="linkMouseOver('dslink_2100313046');" onmouseout="linkMouseOut('dslink_2100313046');">&#68;&&#67; 78:14</a>). Whenever we allow ourselves to become entangled and have to be subsidized from government sources--and we think that it's the expedient way to do business in this day--or when we yield to such pressures, I warn you that government subsidies are not the Lord's way; and if we begin to accept, we are on our way to becoming subsidized politically as well as financially. (Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, [1996], p. 314-115)</p></blockquote>
<p>Thanks Ferreira!</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-2902</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 00:01:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-2902</guid>
		<description>Did Nibley believe in the socialist form of redistribution of wealth?  Hardly.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.believeallthings.com/1195/nibley-on-the-redistribution-of-wealth&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Greg over at Believe All Things&lt;/a&gt; has put together an excellent grouping of quotes from Dr. Nibley on the subject, which accurately reflects his view on the law of consecration, which is far from socialism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did Nibley believe in the socialist form of redistribution of wealth?  Hardly.  <a href="http://www.believeallthings.com/1195/nibley-on-the-redistribution-of-wealth" rel="nofollow">Greg over at Believe All Things</a> has put together an excellent grouping of quotes from Dr. Nibley on the subject, which accurately reflects his view on the law of consecration, which is far from socialism.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-2899</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Oct 2008 02:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-2899</guid>
		<description>A reader emailed me some additional teachings from President Benson, given in a BYU devotional address on September 16, 1986.  In the MP3 version of the talk, Pres. Holland (now Elder Holland) said these prefacing remarks:

&lt;blockquote&gt;President Benson has a very special message prepared for us this morning... it is being directed to the entire membership of the Church in this bi-centennial anniversary year of the U.S. Constitution.  We are most pleased, and very flattered, that President Benson would use the BYU platform for such a significant message directed to the entire membership of the LDS Church.  I say now for all of us, President Benson, thank you for coming.  Thank you for your love for us.  In return, we love and sustain you.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Now for some of President Benson&#039;s counsel:

&lt;blockquote&gt;By deriving its just powers from the governed, government becomes primarily a mechanism for defense against bodily harm, theft, and involuntary servitude. It cannot claim the power to redistribute money or property nor to force reluctant citizens to perform acts of charity against their will. Government is created by the people. No individual possesses the power to take another&#039;s wealth or to force others to do good, so no government has the right to do such things either. The creature cannot exceed the creator. (&quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6985&amp;x=47&amp;y=8&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Constitution - A Heavenly Banner&lt;/a&gt;,&quot; BYU Devotional, 16 September 1986.)&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A reader emailed me some additional teachings from President Benson, given in a BYU devotional address on September 16, 1986.  In the MP3 version of the talk, Pres. Holland (now Elder Holland) said these prefacing remarks:</p>
<blockquote><p>President Benson has a very special message prepared for us this morning&#8230; it is being directed to the entire membership of the Church in this bi-centennial anniversary year of the U.S. Constitution.  We are most pleased, and very flattered, that President Benson would use the BYU platform for such a significant message directed to the entire membership of the LDS Church.  I say now for all of us, President Benson, thank you for coming.  Thank you for your love for us.  In return, we love and sustain you.</p></blockquote>
<p>Now for some of President Benson&#8217;s counsel:</p>
<blockquote><p>By deriving its just powers from the governed, government becomes primarily a mechanism for defense against bodily harm, theft, and involuntary servitude. It cannot claim the power to redistribute money or property nor to force reluctant citizens to perform acts of charity against their will. Government is created by the people. No individual possesses the power to take another&#8217;s wealth or to force others to do good, so no government has the right to do such things either. The creature cannot exceed the creator. (&#8220;<a href="http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6985&amp;x=47&amp;y=8" rel="nofollow">The Constitution &#8211; A Heavenly Banner</a>,&#8221; BYU Devotional, 16 September 1986.)</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-2898</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-2898</guid>
		<description>Brad,

What would it administer?  Good grief.  The government can do many things excluding handing a check to an individual because they are classed by the government as &quot;poor.&quot;  That is socialism, and such practices will cause the fall of our nation.  I quote Anonymous above:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The government derives its powers from the people. The people can only delegate to the government powers that they have. Nobody has the right to forcibly take property from one person and give it to another. So the government cannot have the power to do so either. So while the citizenry can collectively impose taxes on itself and then use those funds to provide services to everyone in the population, they cannot justly impose a tax on themselves and then use those funds to provide services to only a portion of the population. Libraries, Fire Departments, Public Parks, etc. are available to all citizens. But when the government starts to use the taxes to give only certain groups of citizens benefits that are not equally available to others, while funding those services using money taken from the excluded others, we have to ask from where its power to do so comes? Does the ends justify the means?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

We&#039;re done, particularly when comments begin to venture into ad hominem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad,</p>
<p>What would it administer?  Good grief.  The government can do many things excluding handing a check to an individual because they are classed by the government as &#8220;poor.&#8221;  That is socialism, and such practices will cause the fall of our nation.  I quote Anonymous above:</p>
<blockquote><p>The government derives its powers from the people. The people can only delegate to the government powers that they have. Nobody has the right to forcibly take property from one person and give it to another. So the government cannot have the power to do so either. So while the citizenry can collectively impose taxes on itself and then use those funds to provide services to everyone in the population, they cannot justly impose a tax on themselves and then use those funds to provide services to only a portion of the population. Libraries, Fire Departments, Public Parks, etc. are available to all citizens. But when the government starts to use the taxes to give only certain groups of citizens benefits that are not equally available to others, while funding those services using money taken from the excluded others, we have to ask from where its power to do so comes? Does the ends justify the means?</p></blockquote>
<p>We&#8217;re done, particularly when comments begin to venture into ad hominem.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Kramer</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-2897</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Kramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:16:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-2897</guid>
		<description>&quot;Why doesn’t the government advocate setting up donation banks where people may voluntarily donate money for the care of the poor and needy? Why hasn’t that crossed their minds? That would be closer to the Lord’s way.&quot;

Uh, take a look around you.  That has crossed their minds.  But the notion that the only proper thing a government can spend tax money on is its own administrative costs is a logical impossibility -- what would it administer if it could only spend tax revenue on administrative costs?  Your ridiculous assertions that social security, medicaid, medicare, public education, government subsidization of student loans, urban infrastructure are all luciferian evils that will end civilization are utterly disconnected from reality (as is your belief that Hugh Nibley was a democrat despite sharing your logically absurd ideas about taxation and social programs).   All they illuminate is your own intelligence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Why doesn't the government advocate setting up donation banks where people may voluntarily donate money for the care of the poor and needy? Why hasn't that crossed their minds? That would be closer to the Lord's way.&#8221;</p>
<p>Uh, take a look around you.  That has crossed their minds.  But the notion that the only proper thing a government can spend tax money on is its own administrative costs is a logical impossibility &#8212; what would it administer if it could only spend tax revenue on administrative costs?  Your ridiculous assertions that social security, medicaid, medicare, public education, government subsidization of student loans, urban infrastructure are all luciferian evils that will end civilization are utterly disconnected from reality (as is your belief that Hugh Nibley was a democrat despite sharing your logically absurd ideas about taxation and social programs).   All they illuminate is your own intelligence.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-2896</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:10:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-2896</guid>
		<description>Jeremy,

You may call it whatever you wish, but when the government takes money from one person in order to give it to another, it is socialism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy,</p>
<p>You may call it whatever you wish, but when the government takes money from one person in order to give it to another, it is socialism.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryce Haymond</title>
		<link>http://www.templestudy.com/2008/10/28/a-prophet-declares-redistribution-of-wealth-is-socialism/comment-page-2/#comment-2895</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryce Haymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 20:08:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.templestudy.com/?p=1163#comment-2895</guid>
		<description>Brad,

When the government institutes social welfare programs through the tax system, it is forced charity.  It is taking money from one person to supposedly give to someone else more needy.  The Lord&#039;s mode of caring for the poor and needy is through voluntary, freewill, offerings of charity.  That is the Lord&#039;s way.  Forcing such charity through government institutions is not the Lord&#039;s way, and is in opposition to it, for it makes all needy.  When all become needy, then we will become a full-blown socialist nation whereby the government takes care of us all.

Why doesn&#039;t the government advocate setting up donation banks where people may voluntarily donate money for the care of the poor and needy?  Why hasn&#039;t that crossed their minds?  That would be closer to the Lord&#039;s way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brad,</p>
<p>When the government institutes social welfare programs through the tax system, it is forced charity.  It is taking money from one person to supposedly give to someone else more needy.  The Lord&#8217;s mode of caring for the poor and needy is through voluntary, freewill, offerings of charity.  That is the Lord&#8217;s way.  Forcing such charity through government institutions is not the Lord&#8217;s way, and is in opposition to it, for it makes all needy.  When all become needy, then we will become a full-blown socialist nation whereby the government takes care of us all.</p>
<p>Why doesn&#8217;t the government advocate setting up donation banks where people may voluntarily donate money for the care of the poor and needy?  Why hasn&#8217;t that crossed their minds?  That would be closer to the Lord&#8217;s way.</p>
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