56 Comments

  1. Jack

    Great post. We’ve learned over the last while that the cosmos is really big. So big that one might wonder why God might not have been a little more expeditious in his creative endeavors. But even so, I think we’ve pretty much come to (theological) terms with the “bigness” of Creation — spatially, that is. We still have a little ways to go with respect to time, though. Four billion years is a long, long time. Why would God need so much time to prepare the earth for his children? The scriptures speak of a God who has immediate power over the elements — the waters are parted hither and thither at his command, and so forth. And yet, if we allow evolution to inform our thinking on the subject then what we have is an infinitely patient supreme being whose standard MO is to allow ample time for his creations to obey. That ought to instill hope (though we must be careful not to let it instill a false sense of security) rather than flying to pieces like glass.

  2. rob

    There is a reason why so few lds believe in evolution as the means whereby humans came about.Contrary to what some may believe or think, our doctrine states quite thoroughly that Adam was the first man of all men. It doesnt matter that our doctrine isnt in line with what certain scientists believe because we do not put our faith in the hand of man. The evidence is rather obvious if you ask me- There is no documentation of life evolving from one species to another. That whole theory requires a blind leap of faith. Why are we as humans so drastically more intelligent as a species than all other life forms combined?why are there no transitional species of life that exhibit strong intelligence like us?

    As for intelligent design, as lds that is the group we are in. LDS do not believe life can exist without an intelligent designer. People mock the ID movement not realizing what it actually supports and believes in. ID is not there to prove evolution false but rather to show that complex life (intelligent design) did not merely rise by Darwinian theory of chance in nature. Evidence actually supports the theory of intelligent design as the most logical explanation of complexity in nature. It can be tested time and time again that new intelligent information can only come from a pre-existing intelligent source. No test has ever shown to produce new intelligent information coming about without an intelligent source.

  3. Bryce, I’ve tried to communicate with Dawkins about Mormon Transhumanism, but he has not responded. I don’t know if he’s ignored my efforts, or if my efforts are being lost in the enormous amount of communication he most likely receives. I’ve been hoping to invite him to speak at an MTA conference.

    Regarding your last comment, it’s interesting to consider the ramifications of the fact that evolution is not random. It appears that to the extent one controls the environment, one controls evolution. http://phys.org/news/2012-10-random-evolution-genetic-pattern.html

  4. Eric

    Bryce, I, like you, am unopposed to the idea that evolution might well have been the tool by which the Lord created the diversity of life on earth. I do take exception, however, to some of your approaches to the argument.

    Comparing denial of evolution to sinning against the Holy Ghost is, in my opinion, way, way over the top. First of all, no person has seen the kind of evolution that most anti-evolution religionists are opposed to, which are: interspecies evolution and primate-to-man evolution. No one, not even the most ardent evolutionist, has “seen the sun shining in its strength” in the sense of having seen this kind of evolution. And in the next paragraph, after saying above that this is not a doctrinal issue at all, that the important thing is that we remember and believe that God is the Creator, you give your opinion that those denying evolution are in very dangerous territory. Dangerous, why? It’s not a question of salvation, after all.

    I also object to your employing Helaman 8:24 and JS-H 1:25 to support your argument. The First Vision, or Paul’s experience on the road to Damascus, is in no way parallel to the scientific method that has convinced most scientists that evolution is a valid theory. It sounds like you are calling those who deny evolution liars and vision-deniers, when most of the human population hasn’t even seen the evidence that scientists rely upon to support evolution.

    Both of these thrusts in developing your argument are more likely to strengthen the resolve of our fellows in faith in their opposition to the idea of evolution than they are to convince. And what if they are not convinced? Until the Brethren come out with an open stance on this question (unlikely in the extreme), it is not a matter of faith or salvation for us.

    A final point – it seems to me that you’re putting words in the mouths of the First Presidency and President Hinckley when you use their use of the word “evolve” to support your argument of scientific evolution. In neither case were the brethren discussing evolution by reproduction and natural selection; it’s clear they’re speaking of personal progress to the level of the divine.

    Again, I have great respect for your work, and appreciate your labors to invite discussion on these matters, but my concerns for your approach were great enough I felt I had to speak up.

    Cheers,

    Eric

  5. rob

    The first man was just that- the first man. LDS doctrine is at complete odds with evolution on several major fronts. For starters, ou cannot wiggle out of the doctrine of this earth only having a 7 thousand year temporal existence. Temporal relates specifically with time and death. Perhaps Joseph Smith was wrong? Perhaps “temporal” means something besides time and death?

    I can guarantee that no current theory of evolution allows any space or room for God. Evolutionary theory must be traced back to the moment in the tree where life first emerged. And, it must explain how life arose by itself without any intelligent source guiding it. No matter how far back you go in evolutionary theory, no principle or cause can ever be attributed to deity. Evolutionary theory must remain completely naturalistic, completely void of any mention of God.

    Intelligent Design is not a religious movement as some mistakenly assume. ID doesnt make any claim on who, what, or how the intelligence works only that it exists and cannot be lightly excused.

  6. rob

    Bryce,
    Intelligent design in nature can positively be shown to exist. Both you and I are “designers” in nature that produce intelligent results in nature. Ask yourself this- why does intelligence, or purpose exist in nature? Why is this phenomenon found when we know that this phenomenon is not readily explained by laws in nature? We are not the result of natural laws void of design. Theistic evolution is crap. Theistic evolution is “intelligent design”. What bothers me about these so called evolutionists is that when it actually comes down to where God fits in, they have no answer. Its like they still want to say they believe in the Creator just as long as he isnt part of the creation.

  7. Rob, looking backward for God is a poor strategy, hanging our faith on the incredibly shrinking God of the gaps, and establishing a subjective bias against progress in scientific understanding of our origins. Look forward, instead, at potential for human flourishing, its logical and probabilistic implications, and the practical and moral ramifications. If we become God, we almost certainly will not be the first or only to do so; and we’re more likely to become God if we trust in and work toward the possibility; thus, we should trust that God already exists. See the New God Argument.

    This forward-looking faith in God is particularly compatible with Mormon theology, which leaves the question open as to whether there was a first God. If there was a first, perhaps that God evolved in a world exactly as atheists imagine us to be inhabiting at present. Perhaps God emerged from chaos, progressed in knowledge and power, and began creating more worlds that would facilitate or expedite a procreative process, so that others may enjoy the same. Of course, I don’t know all the answers to the many questions that arise from such speculation, but I have found increasing inspiration and faith as I’ve explored this direction.

  8. rob

    Lincoln,
    I am firmly against the idea that there was a first God who came about as a result of nature. Who or what produced a first cause, if such even exists, is beyond our current capacity to comprehend. What we can confirm from observance alone is that there is purpose and design in nature and that nature itself is not the author.

  9. Rob, if comprehension of a first cause (or a lack thereof) is beyond our current capacity to comprehend (which I agree with), why are you firmly against the idea that there was a first God who came about as a result of nature? That sounds inconsistent to me. Help me understand.

  10. rob

    Lincoln,
    I do not believe nature is capable of producing intelligence on its own. There is absolutely no evidence of this happening. Intelligence only comes from intelligence. Scientists will search in vain looking for intelligence springing up randomly in nature/the cosmos.

  11. Rob, as I look at the world, I see a spectrum of intelligence from humans downward toward the simplest life forms. Perhaps, in accordance with your view, intelligence doesn’t spring up randomly. Perhaps the basic building blocks of intelligence are pervasive and always available to be organized into greater empowerment? That seems to reflect Joseph Smith’s perspective on the matter: intelligence was not created or made, but God created all things both spiritual and temporal. As I understand Joseph, he was saying we’ve always existed in one sense and we were created in another sense. I don’t know how else to interpret this than to think God organized both our minds and our bodies from materials he found. How did he organize them? Joseph said God instituted laws, whereby others might progress to become like God. He also said God placed us within a sphere and made us free to act within that sphere. These ideas sound to me a lot like establishing an environment that facilitates and expedites self-organization of minds and bodies, compatible with our scientific understanding of biological evolution. The ideas don’t sound like the more hands-on and direct creation expressed by advocates of intelligent design.

  12. Eric

    Bryce,

    Thank you for your response. I don’t disagree with you, but I’d like to respond to two of your points.

    It may well be that there is enough evidence to a well-established biologist to declare that evolution is “truth”. But questioning (or even doubting) established theory is far, far from anything close to denying the Holy Ghost. Aren’t scientists supposed to be skeptics?

    A second point. Your audience for this discussion seems to me to be believing Latter-day Saints, most of which are not scientists. To assert that denying evolution is comparable to some great sin (the greatest, actually) to this audience condemns many faithful Latter-day Saints for knowing something that they have no responsibility for. Most Latter-day Saints haven’t studied the issue of evolution deeply – they feel no need to because of their correct belief that these answers will come at a later date. But your condemnation of their denial appears to cover everyone. Does the average human being know how broadly the theory of evolution is used to great result? Almost certainly not. Does the average human being know how much sciences of all kinds depend upon this theory? No again. Your condemnation (and I’m sorry to use that word – it feels too strong) might be appropriate to a scientific community, though I feel that even in that case, it is much too strong.

    A brief remark on the comments by the First Presidency and President Hinckley. I repeat that the process they are describing as evolution is not analogous to process described by evolutionists. Scientific evolution is the process of mutation during reproduction, and the survival of the most beneficial genes in the next (thousands of) generations. But the “evolution” of man to God is the evolution of an individual organism to a higher state. It like the change from caterpillar to butterfly, not from caterpillar to walking stick. The brethren have defined the difference between God and man to be of degree, not of kind. See Elder Tad Callister’s fantastic Education Week Devotional talk for one discussion of this process.

    http://speeches.byu.edu/index.php?act=viewitem&id=2060

    Again, I intend no hard feelings or offense.

    Cheers,

    Eric

  13. Alece

    As usual, Bryce, you have given us much to think about. I definitely believe that evolution is a tool used by God (or the Gods) to create. I also believe that it is probably only one of such tools — some of which we don’t understand at the present time — or even know of in some instances. I think the “six days” of creation — along with Eve being formed from Adam’s rib — are totally symbolic, so I don’t get hung up on the amount of time it took for our earth, solar system or universe to come into being. I also think that God could have created man totally separately from other life forms, but that it is also possible that man evolved from other species.

    I found your shining light on the various varients on creation scriptures to be very interesting. I’m not sure I agree with all of your conclusions concerning these varients and their meanings, but seeing them juxtaposed against eachother is very interesting; and I will continue to ponder my own thoughts on these matters.

    I have no problem with evolution as a theory (regardless of how one defines “theory”) since I do believe that God has used it in the past to create or organize things that are both inanimate and animate. I also seem to remember God saying that the rocks are more obedient than man, so even inanimate things can obey God.

    I don’t have a problem with Intelligent design — nor do I have a problem with it at least being discussed in schools, as I think our schools are far too secular today. I have not investigated evolunistic theocracy — but I probably should.

    It is interesting that Dawkins is now considering the possibility of evolving gods — if this is accurate. Maybe there is hope for this great mind after all!

    I guess in closing, I agree with much of what you have discussed in this article. I still believe that when the scriptures say that God created Man in his own image, however, that he meant just that; and I’ll wait to be convinced otherwise by more “proof” than I’ve seen so far!

    Thanks again for all you do. I greatly appreciate the gift of your time and your knowledge and your spirit to this blog!

  14. Rob, you’ve pointed out that the scriptures teach that Adam was the first man. The scriptures don’t, however, say *how* he was first. I believe he was the first man to make covenants with God but was not the first man (physically) to ever exist on the earth. This belief is in agreement with the scriptural statement that Adam was the first man.

  15. Allen, that’s a good point. We also should account for the scriptural statement that Adam “is many”. If Adam is many and Adam is the first man. Perhaps we should interpret Adam, prior to leaving the Garden, to be evolving prehumanity; and perhaps we should interpret Adam, after leaving the Garden, to be evolving humanity. After all, we also take on the identity of Adam in the temple. Adam is humanity, evolving from prehumanity through humanity toward posthumanity in Godhood. That’s how I think of the matter.

  16. Hi Lincoln, I’ve always interpreted the phrase that Adam “is many” to refer to the many worlds created by God, but it is good for us to understand other interpretations. The scriptures are ambiguous enough that we need to realize that our interpretations aren’t necessarily the only correct ones.

  17. Allen, I agree, both with the other reasonable interpretation you suggest and with your allowance for multiple correct interpretations.

    Bryce, I full heartedly agree with your applications of Paul’s and Joseph’s admonishments to remember that we are inter-dependent in these matters. Exaltation is about family, which begins in the home, but doesn’t stop there. It extends to all of humanity and ultimately beyond. The “Day of Transfiguration” spoken of in the D&C is a reference not just to individual transfiguration, but to the transfiguration of the Earth, in preparation for making it our heaven and celestial glory.

  18. rob

    Lincoln,
    I can see where it is easy to look at supposed simple organisms and think it would be rather simple or explanatory to believe just adding one simple step at a time until you get to our complex human forms. This is how most evolutionary models are built. The problems arise however at the microbiological level, especially down ant the DNA level where the actual intelligence or design of complexity comes into play. As far as we know, all life forms are made from DNA, even the simplest of life forms are made from this highly complex DNA. A leaf that falls un-noticed from the tree in my front yard contains more complex intelligent information than the entire database from NASA. Evolutionists like to propose this or that theory to try to re-engineer how intelligence like that of DNA can come about in a natural environment with no intelligent cause to help it along or guide it. In over 50 years of experimintation, science has been wholly and completely baffled on even creating one piece of intelligent information through naturalistic means. They keep bragging up how they have simulated building certain building blocks of life in their labs through naturalistic processes. So what, who cares? DNA is intelligent information which is different- wholly different than mere ingredients for life. Intelligence is not a part of naturalistic laws nor a result of it.

    Of all the phenomenon that exist in our known universe, “intelligence” and why or how it exists trumps all other known phenomenon. There is no bioloigic code for intelligence that we know of, there is also no known mathematical equation for intelligence either.

    All the known evidence suggests that we are part of a design by a pre-existant intelligent force, entity, thing, etc. The evidence is overwhelmingly in favor showing that there is intelligent “purpose” in nature that is not caused by nature itself. Nature itself provides no answer whatsoever on why or how intelligence exists only that nature supports this intelligence through what we define as natural laws. After all the valid contributions that science has made, we are still left with the most important question- how and why does intelligence exist? Its clearly a quest that modern godless science has no answer for whatsoever.

    At some point we have to recognize where the facts are pointing us. And where is that? In the direction that intelligence is not the mere product or sum of naturalistic laws, even if you throw a hundred trillion years at it.

    I have always been interested in computer programs that deal with artificial intelligence because it is kind of neat to see the advances we can make in mimicking true intelligence. Even though we can create very complex mathematical programs to account for a myriad of different scenerios and create the illusion of intelligence, no part of the program takes upon itself the ability to be truly intelligent and come up with new and useful intelligent information on its own. It can only do what it is programmed to always do. Chemicals and matter also operate on strictly mathematical terms and values similar to a computer program. We can create quite the interesting set of things that have use and function in the lab, even biological function. But all of that is the mere design of an intelligent force or cause. We know that chemicals and matter do not just randomly assemble by themselves and create and entire sustainable ecosystem on its own. Natural laws are inadequate for writing out the instructions for intelligence and purpose. Just as the computer program is unable, on its own, to rewrite an new and useful program, so is mother nature.

  19. Rob, thanks for replying. I won’t make time now to respond as thoroughly as I’d like. I’ll just say that I disagree, and the disagreement stems from underlying assumptions that you and I are making differently. This doesn’t make either of us evil or stupid, of course. To illustrate the contrast, I fully expect that our present software engineering efforts, not merely mimicking intelligence, will prove to have been the beginning of the creation of our spirit children. I know you disagree. On April 5 of next year, one of the world’s foremost authorities on artificial intelligence, Ben Goertzel, will be a keynote speaker in SLC at the Mormon Transhumanist Association conference, along with Richard Bushman, the well-known Mormon expert on Joseph Smith history. I invite you to come, share in the experience, and engage in the debate! http://transfigurism-2013.eventbrite.com/

  20. rob

    Bryce,
    So what about someone like me- The more I study evolution and intelligent design, creationism, etc. the more I am swayd in the direction of where the evidence lies- that of there must be an intelligent designer and my whole reason for being here is because of the actions that intelligent designer took. I also look to the scriptures that teach a literal Adam and Eve, a global catastrophic flood, and also resurrection and eternal life. Where am i to believe? I do see eveidence for a global catastrophic flood which leads me also to believe that resurrection and eternal life are also possible. I place my “faith” in the written record of man down through the ages which is supposed to be written by men inspired of God. I could ditch all that and believe in evolution…

    My point here is that we all have the ability to see with our own eyes and be led in that direction of evidence we see. We obviously do not interpret the evidence all the same. You think it incomprehensible for someone like me to believe the way i do and yet i see you as the same way. This only tells me that there is more than one way to look at the evidence and make conclusions. Now as for the correct conclusion, at this point we cannot be sure. Just as there is no factual evidence we evolved from a lower order of species, so is there no factual evidence that resurrection is and has happened. But where do we believe and why? That is paramount to it all and trumps all else.

  21. Nice synopsis of some of the information out there. I think you present a lot of points with a good amount of evidence and solid logic.

    The answer I find most palatable on this topic is one of “I don’t know.” Elder McConkie once taught that we should be wise enough to say we don’t know if we don’t know (although, ironically, that was said in the context of criticizing views in favor of scientific evolution). I find the topic one of the more perplexing issues where current doctrine doesn’t seem to easily mesh with the growing body of solid literature. I try to keep tabs on the latest evolution findings and will re-evaluate every once in a while to see if I have made any progress one way or another.

    My best understanding of the relationship between evolution and the atonement has me leaning against the implications of scientific evolution as we currently understand it. But I can neither make sense of the contradictions logically or yet claim revelation about the matter.

    In the end, however, I am of the perspective that science and religion are ultimately synonyms, save neither currently aligns with the other.

    For anyone who is interested, I picked up a book several years back that I found to be a mostly complete summary of “authoritative” church statements on evolution:

    Mormonism and Evolution: The Authoritative LDS Statements (William E. Evenson & Duane E. Jeffrey, 2005).

  22. Eric

    Lincoln, good question – I’m glad you asked it.

    I didn’t mean my comments to imply that exaltation is achieved outside of a community. We know (and I eagerly look forward to the day) that Christ will bring all things in one in Him. And I also agree with Elder Nelson’s statement (quoted by Bryce above) that while salvation is an individual matter, exaltation is a family matter.

    What I meant by my remark was merely that if I achieve exaltation – the kind of life that God lives – I will be the same person that I am now, at least in essence. The same spirit comprising (if we understand this matter correctly, which we probably don’t) the same intelligence, and inhabiting the same body (though glorified and perfected). I meant to compare that to scientific evolution, by which progress is made only as generations are born and die. The amoeba from which the blue whale evolved (if I can speak somewhat simplistically) no longer exists, whereas the exalted me (for which I hope with all my heart) will still be me.

  23. Eric

    Bryce,

    Thanks again for your reply and for your thoughtful treatment of the subject. I feel like I understand better what you meant by what you said. As I said before, I’m so glad you’re creating a space for discussions for these to be held. There is so much we don’t know, and it’s fun to push the limits of our knowledge.

    Thanks,

    Eric

  24. rob

    Bryce,
    I wanted to touch again on artificial intelligence. You mentioned the super computer Watson. With computer programs, machinery,etc, there is no such thing as “obedience”. Programs only run a program built by an intelligent designer that will only and always do “if this then that” operation. Every decision isnt really an intelligent decision but rather just the sum result of a running program that is and must be mathematically correct. Is Watson capable of true intelligence? Absolutely not. But, is the computer itself the sum result of a process of intelligence? You bet, the computer is a design with a purpose that carries out specified information and intelligent operations. But all of that is entirely and solely because of the intelligent designers who made it for that purpose. As we relate this analogy to life, we see that complex biologic bodies operate the same way- there are obvious functioning bodies that carry out intelligent operations with both specified complexity and purpose. The program life uses is DNA. But there is another element at play and this is where the rubber meets the road. That element is “intelligence”.

    Just as we can say that the super computer is in many ways the same or similar to the function and purpose of DNA, it serves no purpose without the intelligent designer to operate it, comprehend it, and control it. DNA serves no purpose if intelligence does not first exist. This tells us something very important about our origins. It tells us that there must be a designer behind it. Just as we know that Watson didn’t develop on its own, we can also know that DNA didn’t develop on its own either. DNA requires intelligence to understand, comprehend, and control it. It is the very signature of intelligence itself. Natural laws do not build super computers. Neither do natural laws build languages such as DNA that can only be comprehended by intelligence.

  25. I believe (at least, I hope) we all can agree on one thing: truth is truth and can’t contradict itself. The time will come (likely during the Millennium) when truth in science will agree with truth in religion. Until then, we all have our own interpretations of things. I’ve written a paper giving one way that evolution could be reconciled with the fall of Adam. For those interested, here and here are the links to the paper.

  26. I know I’m a little slow on commenting but I wanted to let you know how much I have enjoyed your postings on death before the falll and evolution. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

  27. The Joseph Smith Foundation website has an excellent collection of quotes and articles that refute your conclusions. Have you had a chance to look through this information? In particular, I find it interesting that you quote Brigham Young in a way that helps your case, but on the JSF website, there is an interesting Hugh Nibley quote (from his “More Brigham Young on Education” lecture):

    “Brother Hugh Nibley once commented that the purpose of Brigham Young University as envisioned by Brigham Young was to confront the false doctrines promoted in Darwinian evolution.

    “The purpose of the BYU, then, is to challenge the reigning philosophies of Darwinism and what today is commonly called Social-Darwinism —not to forbid their teaching but to present the gospel alternatives to it. Instead of which we still embrace both with uncritically open arms . . .” ”

    Source: http://www.josephsmithforum.org/research/faqs/14-byus-purpose-was-brigham-young-university-established-to-refute-the-theories-of-darwinism/

    The Joseph Smith Foundation (which I am not associated with in any way) addresses a great many of the issues that you have raised in relation to this discussion (death/other creatures before Adam, etc), and the conclusions all seem to point away from evolution. You will find the topics listed on their website here, with links to the relevant information:

    http://www.josephsmithforum.org/research/faqs/category/science/

    I should close in saying that I love this website, and greatly appreciate all the work you do in promoting a deeper understanding of the temple, I just find the JSF materials more persuasive on this issue.

  28. There is one point that we all seem to have missed. If we take a literal interpretation of the Garden of Eden story, mortality didn’t come into existence until after Adam and Eve had partaken of the fruit. This means that the creation as depicted in the first part of Genesis wasn’t the creation of our mortal world.

    Science and evolution are concerned with the mortal world and have nothing to say about the creation prior to A and E partaking of the fruit. No details are given about the creation of the mortal world after A and E partook of the fruit. In addition, evolution only pertains to our mortal bodies. It does not pertain to our being spirit children of our Father in Heaven. So, the religious paradigm tells us that the world became mortal, and we have to look elsewhere to know how our physical world was created. I look to science for the creation of our physical world, and so far, at least, evolution is the best explanation that science has of that creation.

    I don’t understand, at all, the conflict between science and religion about the creation. Science is concerned with the creation of our mortal world. Religion says nothing about that creation but tells us about a spiritual creation that happened prior to the creation of our mortal world. The two paradigms do not intersect, and they don’t conflict with each other.

    People who disagree with this interpretation will have to disagree with the religious part of Genesis that clearly says that A and E would die if they partook of the fruit, that is, the world would become mortal.

  29. RE: The comment from Nibley about the pre-Adamic people.
    The trouble with some of Nibley’s writings/lectures is that he had a very dry humor that was sometimes difficult to detect, especially in print. In several of his Book of Mormon lectures, he made some offhand comments about Joesph Smith’s having written the Book of Mormon, which may have been taken out of context by those who were unfamiliar with his beliefs.

    On the other hand, there are places where he made lengthier comments in opposition to what you are deriving from the quote about pre-Adamic man. Here is one of them; it is from lecture 109 of his Honors Book of Mormon class:

    “It shows that the beginnings of civilization everywhere do not slowly emerge from a primitive background, as my Professor Wilson used to say at Chicago in Egyptology—infinitely, gradually, and painfully they worked themselves up. For all these species to adapt themselves to their peculiar ways of life, it must have taken millions of generations because it had to be just hit or miss. It had to be natural selection, so it went on so slowly [they claimed]. But the fact is the thing has been interrupted—bang—again and again. Remember we started out mentioning extermination. There have been great extermination periods, and periods very near extermination again and again. Well, this was a thing first pointed out in the sixties by Schindewulff, which he called neocatastrophism. He showed how again and again nearly all of the predominant life forms suddenly disappeared, and in their place different ones suddenly emerged.”

    I am not sure how Prof. Nibley can be referring to civilizations suddenly popping up and subsequently being exterminated all throughout history if he believed in evolution.

  30. Andrew Lacayo

    the fact that God commanded us to reproduce after our kind troubles me because I do accept evolution as part of the process that God used to create the universe. Although commanding us to reproduce after our kind leaves a window open for evolution, at the same time it doesn’t because to evolve into a different species you would no long be the same kind of creation, you would be of a different kind. Can anyone reconcile this discrepancy?

  31. Andrew Lacayo

    Bryce, in regards to my first post, you did address that issue in your article, however, it shouldn’t matter how gradually a species changes, you can’t fulfill God’s command to produce after your kind if your offspring eventually change into a different species, so how do you reconcile that?

  32. Andrew Lacayo

    in the end may be I’m just using too narrow of a definition of “after their kind” and may be God intended more flexibility in that phrase than I’m allowing it to have.

  33. Andrew, in my science and Mormonism blog, I have a post giving my reasons for believing that creation after their kind and evolution are both important in creation. I won’t go into the details here, since my essay is online for all to read, but I will say that evolution without “after their kind” would lead to instability in creation.

  34. Damian

    Bryce, this is my first view of your website. I have loved the other content.

    I applaud your temerity in venturing into this topic, because it has provoked an interesting discussion.

    But I have to say that I side with the comments of Eric, and Rob, D. Rolling Kearney who have challenged some aspects of your views.

    I am not a scientist but I look at evidence for a living. From what I have read, evolution can explain the evolutionary workings within a species, but it doesn’t provide sufficient evidence to explain how the species got here in the first place.

    Unquestionably, we have a definitional problem, because “evolution” is much too broad a term. We need to distinguish between “micro-evolution” (adaptation within a species) and “macro-evolution” (changing from one species to another). Too often, we use the term “evolution” is used to refer to either or both. This creates tremendous confusion.

    I believe in micro-evolution, because I think it is amply demonstrated, but I do not accept the macro-evolutionary theory, because I think it is anything but proven. Indeed, I think the evidence goes against it.

    I believe in science. I believe that true science, when properly understood, is compatible with true religion. Micro-evolution is compatible with my beliefs and with my reason. Macro-evolution conflicts both with my faith and my reason, for reasons that follow:

    *on a religious basis, the scriptures tell us that God commanded each species of plant and animal life to multiply “after their kind,” Micro-evolution, adaption of species to survive (including organisms such as insects adapting to pesticides, or bacteria adapting to antibiotics), and the use of science to enhance breeds, etc., explains the variety we have within species, and is perfectly compatible with science, the scriptures, and our own life experience.

    Macro-evolution, on the other hand, requires at some point that one animal or plant species will morph into another in a completely random fashion. Again, evolutionary adaptation within a species does not prove this. Micro-evolution might result in a variations in size, color, coat, and other characteristics in the dog species, but doesn’t change a dog into another species.

    Scientists sometimes point to an isolated fossil record somewhere to try to demonstrate species jumping, but I haven’t found the evidence compelling, nor is evidence of species jumping found in the volume that would be required to explain the variation and extent of different species that we have now. More on that below.

    *I think any theory has to have some basis in common sense. True macro-evolutionary theory–especially if not guided or directed by a creator–requires that random collisions of molecules originating in some primordial soup result in ever more complicated and sophisticated species until, voila!, here we sit as human beings talking about it.

    Reason tells me that randomness would produce the opposite result–more disorganization and less sophisticated organisms. The macro-evolutionist answers, “well, it is possible, and in fact we are here, which proves that it happened.” That is a tautology: “evolution happened, therefore it happened.”

    Yes, I guess anything is “possible.” It is possible that an ape playing on a typewriter could eventually create a Shakespearean sonnet. But the chances of that happening are so infinitesimally small and so contrary to common sense and experience that we dismiss the possibility out of hand. Similarly, while it is “possible” that random collisions of atoms could create life and then result in increasing complexity and organization (up to and including the human brain), is so unlikely as to resemble fantasy rather than science.

    *for species to have begun and then transmuted sufficiently to provide the infinite variety that we have today, we would have to have literally billions (indeed, probably trillions) of examples of mid-species forms showing how an amoeba became a mouse, and how a mouse became a whale, etc. Where is this shown in the fossil records? The scale and scope that would have been required is not shown in the fossil records. Indeed, fossil records dating back hundreds of millions of years old show species remarkably similar to what we have today. And the Cambrian explosion (in which a variety of life forms appear at once) leaves insufficient time for all of these species to have evolved from lower life forms.

    *in order to support the theory, macro-evolutionists have to assume virtually unlimited time in order for the process to work. But the passage of time still doesn’t answer the questions: how do these random mutations result in increasingly sophisticated and complicated and interdependent organisms and structures? From what we see in nature, mutations make the creature less able to survive, not more.

    *as mentioned by some posters, macro-evolution does not explain the origins of life, or the phenomenon of intelligence. Random collisions of molecules doesn’t explain how we perceive that we are able to make choices among alternatives. Is this an illusion? How can free will exist in a random universe?

    *macro-evolution glosses over the application of the theory to even the simplest mechanisms, let alone the complexity of something like, for instance, a human eye. Could even a simple mechanism like a mouse trap evolve? For this to occur, you would have to have the intersection of the board, the spring, the bait platform, all in the right size, and in a certain orientation, combined with a simultaneous application of force that cocks the mechanism. As unlikely as this is, how much more unlikely is it that all of the variables simultaneously come together to result in an eye that collects light and transmits images by electrical impulses through an optic nerve to the brain?

    *in the absence of evidence, macro-evolutionists have pretty well insisted that we take these things on faith–or that we believe that because micro-evolution is proven, macro-evolution is a fact. It becomes a religion in which heterodoxy is severely punished: no other point of view can be explored. Frankly, I don’t have the blind faith to believe in macro-evolution based on what its adherents have shown me. It is like the junkyard explosion resulting in a 747 aircraft. The wonder of life in all its forms, the spinning of the earth in its orbit, the organization of the universe, the miracle of birth, makes it much easier for me to believe that God set all of these things in motion.

    Perhaps some day, macro-evolutionists will come up with better evidence to support the theory. Until then, I don’t have the blind faith necessary to accept these fantastic explanations.

    I truly believe that in the “big movie,” we will be shocked at the credulity we showed to believe in something so contrary to reason and experience. I believe we will find that the “wisdom of their wise men shall perish,” and that, in the final analysis, the emperor had no clothes.

  35. Cody Andrews

    “The theory of evolution is as much a theory as the theory of gravity, the theory of continental drift, the theory of plate tectonics, the theory of relativity, the theory of cells, the theory of atoms, the theory of heliocentrism (the Earth revolves around the Sun), and a host of other theories that we take for granted today as facts of life.”

    I believe that it should be noted that, while there is a “theory of gravity”, there is Newton’s Law of Gravitation. Listing off theories without their counterpart laws seems like sweeping things under the rug.

    However, this is not me saying that I am against any of the points you have made. This is a well written article and I will certainly need some time to study it in a more thorough manner.

  36. Preston Christensen

    Damian, Those are some interesting points that you made and you are not the first to make those observations (assuming they are indeed your observations). Just a thought or two from someone who has considered many of the same things. One of the ideas that you described is something called “irreducibly complex systems”. It essentially states that there are certain systems that rely on a certain number of parts for it to work, and for each of those parts to randomly evolve would be like guessing a 100 character combination in a limited amount of time. It is not a bad argument and the more you study biology the more of these systems you will see both on the organ level and on the cellular level. What it ignores however, is that these systems have developed from simpler systems with DIFFERENT functions. For every example that has been brought forward there are very logical explanations for how they came about.
    While there really is mountains of good evidence supporting speciation (or macroevolution). I do appreciate the point you seem to bring up that many academics take a “leap of faith” as it were on other topics. It seems to me that many are so set in their philosophical presuppositions that they are left with no choice but to come up with strange ideas like the multiverse (admittedly not a topic I am very expert on at all). In other words, the idea of a creator, God, or even any higher power is not even worthy of any sort of consideration what so ever. They treat the absence of God (or any higher creative power) as if it were an a priori fact, which it certainly is not.
    Anyway, just a few thoughts I had. I don’t think it is demeaning to us or to God to think that He used evolution as one of his many tools of creation. After all, as the author pointed out. We were created from dust. I have other thoughts on how we were created in God’s image in what SEEMS to be a random mess.
    As for your paragraph on free will, that is a VERY interesting and a VERY old debate. Although LDS doctrine is clear on the fact that we have free will, what exactly that means is still hard to know. Once you really press the idea further you will find even the brethren have somewhat differing ideas on that topic.
    if you are interested in the philosophy of biology from an LDS perspective. I would recommend “Evolving Faith” by Steven Peck from BYU. I’m sure there are hundreds of books on the topic, that is just one I have read.

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